Genealogy Chat

My Grandmother Alice Brooks parents were James William Brooks and Harriett Brooks (nee Holland)
Harriett was born in St Saviour, Southwark in 1863
Her sister Elizabeth or Eliza Holland (nickname Bessie) emigrated to Canada as a young woman probably in her early 20's and married a sheep farmer in Toronto as far as I know. They were alive in 2nd world war and sent food parcels. Then there were some fires in the area they lived and never heard from sgain. I did post a while back on rootchat and John Henry Metters is a possible spouse. However, not sure that Elizabeths Holland's parents were George and Elizabeth so would rule this out?http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=126638.0

I have Mary A Holland, born 1835 as Elizabeth's and Harriet's Mother as per 1871 census.
RG10 piece 546, folio 54, page 16. 24 Stepney Causeway. However, I stand to be corrected as only an amatuer

The post on Rootschat seems as if you weren't too sure if Elizabeth/Bessie were sisters, so back tracking to a certain extent to known events.

Harriett Holland marriage
Estimated birth year: abt 1862
Age: 26
Spouse: James William Brooks
Spouse Age: 26
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 1 Jul 1888
Parish: All Saints, Walworth
Borough: Southwark
Father Name: Robert Holland <<< Boiler maker
Spouse Father: Francis Brooks <<< Seal Skin Dresser
Register Type: Parish Register

Brides address 7 Woodlands Place, Grange Road
Groom address 7 Grange Rd, Bermondsey
Witnesses John Lemmer & Elizabeth Maryann Brooks

Not spotting 1881 at the moment

1871
Harriet Holland
Age: 7
Estimated birth year: abt 1864
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: Robert Holland
Mother's name: Mary Holland
Gender: Female
Where born: London, England
Civil Parish: Greenwich
Town: Greenwich
County/Island: Kent
Country: England
Registration district: Greenwich
Sub-registration district: Greenwich West
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Household schedule number: 89
Piece: 753
Folio: 10
Page Number: 15
Robert Holland 46 <<< boiler maker
Mary Holland 45
Robert Holland 17
Eliza Holland 14
Harriet Holland 7
Anna Holland 4
Frederick Holland 2

1861
Name: Robert Holland
Age: 37
Estimated birth year: 1824
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary Holland
Gender: Male
Where born: St Pancras, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: Christchurch
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Street address:

Registration district: St Saviour Southwark
Sub-registration district: Christchurch
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 316
Piece: 313
Folio: 159
Page Number: 49

Robert Holland 37
Mary Holland 36
Mary A Holland 10
Robert Holland 8
Elza Holland 3
Frederick Holland 9/12

Forward to 1891 for Robert
Name: Robert Holland << occupation, Boiler maker
Age: 66
Estimated birth year: abt 1825
Relation: Inmate
Gender: Male
Where born: St Pancras, London, England
Civil Parish: Greenwich
Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: Greenwich
Sub registration district: Greenwich East
ED, institution, or vessel: Greenwich Union Workhouse

Piece: 515
Folio: 114
Page Number: 10

Nothing for Mrs Mary Holland on the 1891, but she is also in Greenwich Workhouse in 1901
Name: Mary Holland
Age: 74
Estimated birth year: abt 1827
Relation to Head: Inmate (married)
Gender: Female
Birth Place: W C Lond, Holborn
Civil Parish: Greenwich
Search Photos: Search for 'Greenwich' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch
County/Island: London
Country: England

Registration district: Greenwich
Sub-registration district: Greenwich East
ED, institution, or vessel: Greenwich Union Workhouse

Piece: 543
Folio: 84
Page Number: 26
Household schedule number: 1

This is the 1871 which you attributed to the family

Name: Mary A Holland
Age: 36
Estimated birth year: abt 1835
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Poplar, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: Stepney
Ecclesiastical parish: St Thomas
Town: Ratcliff
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: Stepney
Sub-registration district: Ratcliff
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Household schedule number: 77
Piece: 546
Folio: 54
Page Number: 15

Mary A Holland 36
Mary A Holland 15
Elizabeth J Holland 11
Harriet H Holland 7
Henry W Holland 6
Louisa M Holland 4
Jesse Holland 2

She states that she is a widow & a tailoress.
.............

If the marriage of Harriet Holland to John William Brooks is correct, then the census isn't.

Same family in 1861
Name: Mary A Holland
Age: 26
Estimated birth year: 1835
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Harry Holland
Gender: Female
Where born: Poplar, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: Limehouse
Ecclesiastical parish: St John
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Registration district: Stepney
Sub-registration district: Limehouse
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 102
Piece: 286
Folio: 71
Page Number: 18
Household Members:
Name Age
Harry Holland 34 <<< Cooper born Blackfriars
Mary A Holland 26
Mary A Holland 5
Emily Holland 3
Elizabeth Holland 1

Just wondering if Bessie was James' sister rather than Harriett's? Too late to follow through tonight, but posting for consideration

1871

Name: James W Brooks
Age: 9
Estimated birth year: abt 1862
Relation: Son
Father's name: Francis Brooks
Mother's name: Caroline Brooks
Gender: Male
Where born: Bermondsey, Surrey, England
Civil Parish: Bermondsey
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary Magdalen
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Registration district: St Olave Southwark
Sub-registration district: St Mary Magdalen
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Household schedule number: 59
Piece: 630
Folio: 10
Page Number: 13
Household Members:
Name Age
Francis Brooks 47 <<< father named at the marriage
Caroline Brooks 35
Sarah C Brooks 11
James W Brooks 9
Eliza Brooks 6
Elizabeth M A Brooks 4 <<< witness at the marriage?
Caroline Brooks 2
Francis R Brooks 9 Months

With an Eliza already in the family, Elizabeth being known as Bessie would help to distinguish the 2

OP posted twice, probably by accident


There are different responses on the other thread ............

www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/genealogy_chat/thread/1356984?jump=1356984



is it possible to combine the 2 threads?

Lucy must have known that she had 2 threads, she added a second post to both of them at different times.

Since I was the only one who responded to the other thread I'll c&p my responses here and delete them from the other thread.

Would this be her marriage?

John Henry Metters

in the Ontario, Canada, Marriages, 1801-1928
Record Image View

Name: John Henry Metters
Age: 26
Birth Date: abt 1868
Birth Place: England
Marriage Date: 28 Mar 1894
Marriage County or District: Middlesex
Father: William Metters
Mother: Jane Metters
Spouse: Elizabeth Holland
Spouse's Age: 20
Spouse Birth Date: abt 1874
Spouse Birth Place: England
Spouse Father: George Holland
Spouse Mother: Elizabeth Holland

Is this your Harriet in 1871? If so her sister Elizabeth can't be the one who married John Metters in Canada, she's much too old.

Harriet Holland

in the 1871 England Census
Record Image View

View blank form

Name: Harriet Holland
Age: 8
Estimated birth year: abt 1863
Relation: Daughter
Mother's name: Mary Holland
Gender: Female
Where born: Worsley, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Worsely
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mark
Town: Worsley
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: Barton Upon Irwell
Sub-registration district: Worsley
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Household schedule number: 158
Piece: 3965
Folio: 20
Page Number: 33
Household Members:
Name Age
Mary Holland 41
Elizabeth Holland 16
Harriet Holland 8
Diana Holland 3
Sarah Gregory 19

Hi, thank you. The Metters link was mentioned to me on rootschat and I don't think
this was my relative Elizabeth Holland marrying John Metters as her parents names are different. My research pretty much ties in with what you have also concluded from the census returns.
Still a mystery and whatever happened to Elizabeth and whoever she married who was a sheep farmer in Toronto. There was talk of fire outbreaks in the area of farmland where they lived and around the area 1940's. Before this was the last known contact

Detective, the 1871 census you showed first on here looks correct as Robert Holland is listed as a boiler maker the same as on the marriage. I have updated my tree.

Elizabeth would have been in her 70's by world war two when food parcels were sent regularly so could have just died of old age which is why never heard from again!
She would have gone to Toronto in her 20's or 39's to marry a sheep farmer!

Also, the death record for John Metters is 21 March 1924, and your information is that Elizabeth's spouse was alive during WWII? That again would exclude him as being husband. Death record is visible on familysearch.org

Lucy, perhaps your mother will know if Elizabeth Holland is a younger or older sister. We need to rule out some Elizabeth's based on age here. There are lots and lots of FREE Canadian records (Birth, Marriage & Death) on FamilySearch.org AND immigration/emigration records. Original images that you can download for free. Nice thing about Canadian records is that they tend to provide quite a bit of "extra" information....as long as you can read the handwriting. 1921 Census from Canada is also FREE on Ancestry. I don't believe the UK 1921 is released yet, but the Canadian one is. One further thought...."living in Toronto" could mean anyone living in what's called the GTA here (Greater Toronto Area). Because Canada is so vast, we tend to be rather...ahem....generous with boundaries here, and I can easily see that family in England might be told "Toronto" when in fact they lived somewhere, say, within in a 60-100 km radius of Toronto! It would depend on the family though, and how specific they liked to be. I'm thinking a sheep farmer in Toronto, would at the very least be on the outskirts... Even 100 years ago.

Thank you for the advise, I have phoned my mum and the lady who sent food parcels from Canada in 1942 was definately her Grandmother Hartiett Holland's sister with the nickname Betty.
As far as my research goes and the kind people on here she had two sisters Eliza Holland born in 1857 and Anna Holland born in 1867 so none were originslly cslled Betty.
The parents were Robert and Mary.

Betty? emigrated to Canada quite young to marry a sheep farmer in Toronto my mum thinks but could be Ontario.

Toronto is a city in the province of Ontario.

Maybe we can come to this another way.

Lucy ..............

does your mother know how she met the sheep farmer??

Was he a local who emigrated to Canada before she did?

Bessie emigrated to Canada before mum was born (mum was born in 1930's) and Bessie emigrated in her age 20's or 30,s so was around 1880's if she was the Eliza Holland born 1857. Mum was still young when the food parcels were sent and didn't ask her Gran Harriett much about Harriet's sister and where she married.

I have just tried to look on bmd for a birth for Eliza Holland in 1857 or 1858 in St Saviour Southwark where she was listed as aged three on 1861 census as per previous comment by Detective.
Nothing stands out as there are a few people born in London with this name. I thought to check for any middle initials or names like Bettie.

well, Betty is one of the commonest shortened name for Elizabeth. and possibly Eliza ...............

my sister-i-l is Elizabeth but has always been known as Betty